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Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think

Posted: 5/24/2013 1:20 AM

Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 


i didnt want this to get burried but looking back all the way to 2010, Perez as of today is having his lowest total for Save Opps in the 1st 2 months of the season.

in 2010 he pitched in 20 Games for 8 Save Opps
in 2011 he pitched in 23 Games for 15 Save Opps
in 2012 he pitched in 22 Games for 18 Save Opps
in 2013 he pitched in 16 games for 8 Save Opps

the fact is this is not a normal routine for him to sit so many games, he cant get into a rythem which you have to be able to do as a closer and this is on Francona as you have to give him some kind of work even in blowouts just to keep him game ready.

but out of the 4 years, his ERA is at its lowest point this year, His Ks this year are 2nd in the 4 years, his opposing BA and WHIP are on pace to be as good if not better then the last 3 year at the 20 game mark.

Now on top of all that? he's 1 of only 3 pitchers in the last 3 years (2010-2012) to save a total of over 100 games (Kimbrel,Street, Perez)

And this is what pisses me off most about Cleveland "Fans" you dont think Perez is really that bad of a closer, you hate him because you think he should never blow a save, and you hate him because he ripped on people for not going to the games, he's off to one of his best starts in his career despite not pitching often and getting out of sync yet he blows 2 saves in a row and all of a sudden he's garbage? Bullshit. He's no worse then one of the top 5 closers in all of baseball and thats the truth.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 1:40 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 


I'm not sure fans "hate" him for being a "bad closer" (a bad closer is Joe Borowski).  I think fans are upset with him is because he calls out Tribe fans, gets into fights on the field with Oakland fans which embarrasses Cleveland, twitter wars, etc... 

The guy loves to talk the talk, but can't take criticism.  Granted, some if not most was inappropriate, but none the less, the guy can dish it but can't take it.

Me personally, I'm tired of his act.  He is a decent closer, but throws a 93 mph straight fastball which is not going to fool many.  He needs to be more than a 1 pitch pitcher and change speeds and location.  MLB hitters are going to sit dead red until he learns - if that is possible.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 1:50 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 


Example A. Their are absolutely no facts that back up you're last opinion. And im glad he calls out tribe "fans" its well deserved and waaaaaaaaay past due. Fans whined bitched and cried about not spending money to win now they have and people still dont go to games.

You're one of the prime examples in my OP.

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--- LuisMedina wrote:

I'm not sure fans "hate" him for being a "bad closer" (a bad closer is Joe Borowski).  I think fans are upset with him is because he calls out Tribe fans, gets into fights on the field with Oakland fans which embarrasses Cleveland, twitter wars, etc... 

The guy loves to talk the talk, but can't take criticism.  Granted, some if not most was inappropriate, but none the less, the guy can dish it but can't take it.

Me personally, I'm tired of his act.  He is a decent closer, but throws a 93 mph straight fastball which is not going to fool many.  He needs to be more than a 1 pitch pitcher and change speeds and location.  MLB hitters are going to sit dead red until he learns - if that is possible.

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Last edited 5/24/2013 1:50 AM by UNCDiamondHeelfan

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Posted: 5/24/2013 2:48 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 


Perez has had this year, like most years, some health issues which have been clearly documented. I'm really not certain he could have endured much more workload in the last month.

Listen, you think Chris Perez is a top five closer, fine, that doesn't make him a fabulous pitcher. Heck, the Tigers picked Valverde off the scrap heap and installed him at closer...and they are considered one of the teams likely to make the World Series. There are great pitchers who happen to be closers--Mariano Rivera, Bruce Sutter--and not-so-great pitchers who happen to be closers--Frank Borowski, Jason Grilli--and so what, Chris Perez does that job too, does it make him great when he succeeds at the about the same rate as everybody else this side of Mariano Rivera?

I generally just shrug my shoulders at whatever Chris does; as long as he doesn't lose me the game, I'm OK with his appearances. Occasionally he'll upset me with one of his super meltdowns; less occasionally he'll actually enthrall me. But normally he's an irritant off the field, and sometimes an unnecessary distraction on the field as well. His overall persona is not "colorful" in the least and it's generally annoying to friend and foe alike. The act is wearing thin with everyone, unfortunately too late to deal him for much value no matter what Jim Bowden says. He may have value, but nothing commensurate with what you think a "Top Five Closer in the Game" probably deserves.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 6:37 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 


I don't hate him, I just think he isn't very good at pitching. He goes out there a lot of the time with 1 pitch, because he misses horribly with a slider or two at which point both he and the hitters know it. The way I see it he happens to get 3 outs before giving up the lead more often than not, which is indeed his job. It's whatever. Could be better could be worse, but he'll do for now.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 7:24 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 


he's an overpaid, mediocre pitcher and a jerk. other than that ...
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Posted: 5/24/2013 9:50 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 


Perez is one of the better closers there's really not much question of that other than from some fans who think closers never give up runs... same type fans that insist fans will only come to the park if we win for 10 years straight, have every superstar in the league play for us and are leading the division by at least 10 games
(that is - unrealistic ones)

Perez gave up runs in two straight games - we didn't get any fun stories like Chapman eating too many pastries before he blew a game...

it's the nature of the game - closers pitch when anything they give up means a bad outcome!  nobody else does that so we don't notice them like a closer

it comes with the territory and he should understand it - that's why so few guys can do the job at all
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Posted: 5/24/2013 9:51 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



buckeyedanpt2 wrote: Perez is one of the better closers there's really not much question of that other than from some fans who think closers never give up runs... same type fans that insist fans will only come to the park if we win for 10 years straight, have every superstar in the league play for us and are leading the division by at least 10 games
(that is - unrealistic ones)

Total BS.

Try harder than the "real fan" card next time.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 9:53 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
it's the nature of the game - closers pitch when anything they give up means a bad outcome!  nobody else does that so we don't notice them like a closer

How do you respond to the fact that Perez "closes" games at a rate consistent with the rate at which games have been "closed" in major league history?
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Posted: 5/24/2013 9:58 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
it's the nature of the game - closers pitch when anything they give up means a bad outcome!  nobody else does that so we don't notice them like a closer

How do you respond to the fact that Perez "closes" games at a rate consistent with the rate at which games have been "closed" in major league history?
"History" here means since 1959 when Jerome Holtzman introduced the save statistic, one that measure the ability of pitchers to surrender fewer than 3 runs while recording the final out of a game. How revealing.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 10:00 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



madexpubident wrote:
MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
it's the nature of the game - closers pitch when anything they give up means a bad outcome!  nobody else does that so we don't notice them like a closer

How do you respond to the fact that Perez "closes" games at a rate consistent with the rate at which games have been "closed" in major league history?
"History" here means since 1959 when Jerome Holtzman introduced the save statistic, one that measure the ability of pitchers to surrender fewer than 3 runs while recording the final out of a game. How revealing.

Oh we agree here.

The statistic is crazy stupid in and of itself, but WhoAzcue posted a link that was a bit more revealing in the other thread. Basically, teams win 85% of the time when they have a 1 run lead going into the 9th and 94% with a 2 run lead. Perez converts at 86%, and that is a weighted average of 1, 2, and 3 run situations.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 10:05 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
madexpubident wrote:
MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
it's the nature of the game - closers pitch when anything they give up means a bad outcome!  nobody else does that so we don't notice them like a closer

How do you respond to the fact that Perez "closes" games at a rate consistent with the rate at which games have been "closed" in major league history?
"History" here means since 1959 when Jerome Holtzman introduced the save statistic, one that measure the ability of pitchers to surrender fewer than 3 runs while recording the final out of a game. How revealing.

Oh we agree here.

The statistic is crazy stupid in and of itself, but WhoAzcue posted a link that was a bit more revealing in the other thread. Basically, teams win 85% of the time when they have a 1 run lead going into the 9th and 94% with a 2 run lead. Perez converts at 86%, and that is a weighted average of 1, 2, and 3 run situations.
Oh I know, just adding to the evidence in a case that should be open and shut, but, isn't owing to to the fetishization of a particular number. I do think the majority of GMs, however much they may use the term "closer," realize that what you're talking about is a RP, not a skill.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 10:06 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
it's the nature of the game - closers pitch when anything they give up means a bad outcome!  nobody else does that so we don't notice them like a closer

How do you respond to the fact that Perez "closes" games at a rate consistent with the rate at which games have been "closed" in major league history?

As I pointed out - that was both a misrepresentation of Perez's stats (counting Blown saves form before he was the closer when he came into 8th inning games with runners on base) AND misrepresenting a statistic (the % was WINNING games not SAVES)

So drop the save stat you hate (I don't care either way) - you keep giving a % of WINS a team gets

This year the indians have won 100% of the games Perez entered with a lead of any amount.
So by the stat you keep giving Perez is the real deal!  You are making a great case for keeping him in that role!  100%!  devil

Last edited 5/24/2013 10:10 AM by buckeyedanpt2

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Posted: 5/24/2013 10:56 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 


No what i think doesn't make him a top 5 closer but the facts and what he's done the last few years do.

---------------------------------------------
--- WhoAzcue wrote:

Perez has had this year, like most years, some health issues which have been clearly documented. I'm really not certain he could have endured much more workload in the last month.

Listen, you think Chris Perez is a top five closer, fine, that doesn't make him a fabulous pitcher. Heck, the Tigers picked Valverde off the scrap heap and installed him at closer...and they are considered one of the teams likely to make the World Series. There are great pitchers who happen to be closers--Mariano Rivera, Bruce Sutter--and not-so-great pitchers who happen to be closers--Frank Borowski, Jason Grilli--and so what, Chris Perez does that job too, does it make him great when he succeeds at the about the same rate as everybody else this side of Mariano Rivera?

I generally just shrug my shoulders at whatever Chris does; as long as he doesn't lose me the game, I'm OK with his appearances. Occasionally he'll upset me with one of his super meltdowns; less occasionally he'll actually enthrall me. But normally he's an irritant off the field, and sometimes an unnecessary distraction on the field as well. His overall persona is not "colorful" in the least and it's generally annoying to friend and foe alike. The act is wearing thin with everyone, unfortunately too late to deal him for much value no matter what Jim Bowden says. He may have value, but nothing commensurate with what you think a "Top Five Closer in the Game" probably deserves.

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Posted: 5/24/2013 10:57 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 


Yeah just anyone can accomplish what perez does, thats why only 2 others have done it in baseball

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--- buddy34 wrote:

he's an overpaid, mediocre pitcher and a jerk. other than that ...

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Posted: 5/24/2013 11:01 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 



UNCDiamondHeelfan wrote: Yeah just anyone can accomplish what perez does, thats why only 2 others have done it in baseball

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--- buddy34 wrote:

he's an overpaid, mediocre pitcher and a jerk. other than that ...

---------------------------------------------

The accomplishment is one that a guy just made up as an accomplishment in 1959.

It's a tautology.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 11:19 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



UNCDiamondHeelfan wrote: i didnt want this to get burried but looking back all the way to 2010, Perez as of today is having his lowest total for Save Opps in the 1st 2 months of the season.

in 2010 he pitched in 20 Games for 8 Save Opps
in 2011 he pitched in 23 Games for 15 Save Opps
in 2012 he pitched in 22 Games for 18 Save Opps
in 2013 he pitched in 16 games for 8 Save Opps

the fact is this is not a normal routine for him to sit so many games, he cant get into a rythem which you have to be able to do as a closer and this is on Francona as you have to give him some kind of work even in blowouts just to keep him game ready.

but out of the 4 years, his ERA is at its lowest point this year, His Ks this year are 2nd in the 4 years, his opposing BA and WHIP are on pace to be as good if not better then the last 3 year at the 20 game mark.

Now on top of all that? he's 1 of only 3 pitchers in the last 3 years (2010-2012) to save a total of over 100 games (Kimbrel,Street, Perez)

And this is what pisses me off most about Cleveland "Fans" you dont think Perez is really that bad of a closer, you hate him because you think he should never blow a save, and you hate him because he ripped on people for not going to the games, he's off to one of his best starts in his career despite not pitching often and getting out of sync yet he blows 2 saves in a row and all of a sudden he's garbage? Bullshit. He's no worse then one of the top 5 closers in all of baseball and thats the truth.
First off I love you're outlook that if you don't agree with me you're not a real fan. Or you're less of a fan then me. How dare someone not have the same outlook as you. I guess even though a week ago I drove 10 hours about 600 miles spent HUNDREDS of $ to go to 1 game between gas hotel food ticket I'm not a real fan because I don't like 1 player. People can be fans and not like a player They don't have to love every player on the team to be real fans. I'm a Cleveland Indians Fan been so since I was 11 years old in 1995 I have stayed that way through the good times and the bad I'm not a Chris Perez fan. When he gets a save I will cheer the fact that he saved a game for the Indians that doesn't mean I'm cheering Chris Perez it means I'm cheering the Cleveland Indians. This mindset that people have that if you don't like Perez you're any less of a fan is just wrong IMO. 

2nd Chris Perez earned his treatment form the "fans" as you say. He threw the fans under the bus when he felt that they weren't living up to there end. So when he's not doing his job (getting people out without giving up runs) the "fans" are not wrong for calling him out. what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

3rd I don't recall many saying he's garbage. I think he's overrated but that doesn't mean I think he's garbage. The term that I have seen most is just anther relief pitcher. I'm sure some think he's garbage but that's NOT what most are saying. We just don't think he's great.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 11:19 AM

Re: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some "fans" think 



buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
it's the nature of the game - closers pitch when anything they give up means a bad outcome!  nobody else does that so we don't notice them like a closer

How do you respond to the fact that Perez "closes" games at a rate consistent with the rate at which games have been "closed" in major league history?

As I pointed out - that was both a misrepresentation of Perez's stats (counting Blown saves form before he was the closer when he came into 8th inning games with runners on base) AND misrepresenting a statistic (the % was WINNING games not SAVES)

So drop the save stat you hate (I don't care either way) - you keep giving a % of WINS a team gets

This year the indians have won 100% of the games Perez entered with a lead of any amount.
So by the stat you keep giving Perez is the real deal!  You are making a great case for keeping him in that role!  100%!  devil

4-17


That's the record of Chris Perez's teams when he blows a save.
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Posted: 5/24/2013 11:49 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 


And you're point is? Every accomplishment is something someone made up at one point or another

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--- MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:


UNCDiamondHeelfan wrote: Yeah just anyone can accomplish what perez does, thats why only 2 others have done it in baseball

---------------------------------------------
--- buddy34 wrote:

he's an overpaid, mediocre pitcher and a jerk. other than that ...

---------------------------------------------

The accomplishment is one that a guy just made up as an accomplishment in 1959.

It's a tautology.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 5/24/2013 11:53 AM

RE: Why Chris Perez is not as bad as some 



UNCDiamondHeelfan wrote: And you're point is? Every accomplishment is something someone made up at one point or another

My point is if you're going to make a call to the authority of the accomplishment then you should probably back up why the accomplishment is a worthwhile one.

 

When somebody gets lauded for having a wRC+ of 150, we do so because they generated runs at a rate of 150% of league average. Generating runs leads directly to wins. Preventing runs leads to wins, too, but "saving a game" is not a measure at how good a pitcher is at preventing runs. There is some correlation there, but I would prefer to simply look at the pitcher's ability to prevent runs.

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